Interview with Jordan Harbinger

Nick: Thanks for sitting down with me. I’m with Jordan Harbinger today and today we're going to talk about what bold people are and what comes to mind when you think of that but before we get started I’d love to start interviews with name one fun fact about yourself.

Jordan: Fun fact about me. I speak four languages.

Nick: Let’s hear some.

Jordan: English, German, Spanish and Serbo Croatian.

Nick: I want to hear a little bit of the last.

Jordan: Serbo Croatian?

Nick: Yeah.

Jordan: (speaking in Serbo Croatian) that means like what’s up man?

Nick: I like. So just for the listeners and the people who are watching. You’re a dating coach. You’re a social dynamics expert. You have a huge podcast that has tons of subscribers and you also have a radio show here at Sirius xm. So tell us a little bit more about how you got into that.

Jordan: The podcast started and AJ who’s my co host in the basement and we basically decided hey were going out all the time trying to figure out all this stuff and actually let me back up even more. I was in law school at the University of Michigan and AJ was in graduate school in med school and I was in law school. I was hanging out with people and I was like I’m so sick of these people. They were nice and everything but I was so sick of these people. so I was like I’m not going to go out with them anymore until I make new friends because if I keep going out with these people I’m never going to have any real impetus to make new friends cause I’m going to get comfortable and realize ahh, at least I’m going out with people even if I’m so sick of them, write them over. So I decided I’m just going to stay home until I meet new friends. Well here’s the problem. Growing up your friends are the kids who live on your block and who go to your elementary school. High school, they’re the kids from your high school, from your town who play football with you and hangout around your place or whatever or have the same ons. College they’re the kids who are on your floor in the dormitory or maybe some guys you worked with on a project in some class.

Nick: Or whoever you met first.

Jordan: Or whoever you met first at orientation. Then you go to work. You go on the working world then they’re the people who you work with who have the cubicle next to you. So I’m like okay. Proximity is the factor here. I’m in law school. I’m just hanging out with these people because of proximity. There has to be another way. How do these guys know girls that go to different schools? They know dudes that go to school out of state and it’s usually like oh my brother introduced me to this people or they played some sports together. There’s some sort of connection that also with proximity but I was like there’s definitely something to be said for breaking out of just reliance on proximity. Just reliance on proximity, there’s got to be some other ways to meet people.

Nick: So this is where social dynamics came in?

Jordan: So this is where I started going okay I’m not going to hang out with these people until I’m going to go out on my own and meet new people and get their phone numbers and plan some events and actually hang out with them.

Nick: What was that like? Was it nerve wracking?

Jordan: It was hard because what I did like any good nerd I goggled how to make friends and I came up with all the stupidest advice like go out and buy drinks for people then they will like you and I’m like that might work but it will probably just going to results in me being broke. Even more broke than I am already as a student or they’re like how to make new friends? Join a pottery class or a cooking class. that’s cool but it’s still proximity and it’s still then I’m in a cooking class and what if I’m like these people are kind of lame and they’re all 50. Then I’m friends with all these 50 years olds. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I think you should be friends with everybody but I don’t want to only meet 12 new people every three months. I want to meet 20 new people a day.

Nick: So this ultimately led to social dynamics and you got pretty well verse in it.

Jordan: Exactly. So I thought okay I’m going to figure this out. So I did a lot of psychology reading which is...

Nick: Nerd in yourself.

Jordan: Right and I was already in law school so I was already doing a ton of reading. So every waking moment that I wasn’t studying and wasn’t trying to stay in shape or like eating. I was reading psychology. I was writing about stuff online in forums with other guys across the world. There was sort of like this subculture movement of guys that were like trying to meet girls and I thought okay this is the closest overlap that I have. At the time I already had a girlfriend. I was like aw this is like pickup chicks crap.

Nick: It gave you an in detest everything.

Jordan: It gave me an in detest everything. So I started going hey I’m going to use this pickup knowledge and run it by my girlfriend and try this stuff out at her and her friends and see kind of how they react. So I have a testing ground for that. Then I’m going to try and steer it in the direction of just making more friends. So me and my girlfriend would go out and make friends with other couples. We’d go out and make friends with other girls. We go out and make friends with brand new people and party and stuff and I was like this is working out really well.

Nick: There’s no more proximity limitation.

Jordan: There’s no more proximity limitation whatsoever. We were just hyper really friendly people who had tons of cool like people inviting us to events, parties, taking us out to dinner. Older couples would be like you guys remind me of us because you’re adorable. I had guys offering me jobs like when you graduate from law school I’m a partner at a big law firm in Chicago if you want to come and intern with us and I was like this is going to be really rad. like this is really changing my life and I wasn’t even, this is like three to six months out before id even figured out to systemize it I was just trying new stuff.

Nick: So ultimately this led to you teaching other people. So how long of a span was there like a four, five year run?

Jordan: I’ve been doing this for seven years or so now. So what happened initially was I met AJ a while in to try new stuff out with a mutual friend who was a real sceptic and he was like let’s see some of this stuff you’re talking about in action. So I was like fine. I can get any girls phone number in this whole bar and its going to be easy and were out for my whole birthday and he’s like whatever. Go talk to that chick. So I’m like okay. Picks out the hottest girl in the bar. I go up talk to her. Tease her a little bit. High five or whatever and I’m like hey you know what I got to run. Give me your phone number for totally hanging out because you’re adorable and she was like okay. run back to the table after I go get a drink from the bar and AJ and this other guy were just like what just happened and I was like I’m telling you this stuff is so easy. Now I had no idea what to do with the phone number after that besides calling okay what’s going on. I wasn’t that far along yet. Seven years ago I didn’t really know. It was hit or miss with the phone numbers back then.

Nick: Right so ultimately all this led into teaching guys and so you started it’s called the pickup podcast.

Jordan: Right. We started the pickup podcast because guys were asking to AJ and I after AJ and I have gone out for a year, guys were asking us hey I see you guys out you know every bartender. You know every doorman. you know every freaking chick and all the dudes in the city of Ann Arbor, Michigan which is where we were like how do you do that? What do you guys do? Are you promoters? Do you own the bar or does your dad own the property? like what’s up and we said no man we just have this system and its cake and were just out practicing kicking it and having fun and so guys would pay us in drinks to teach them and we were like okay were going to become alcoholics if we keep doing this cause it was like five nights a week and that’s a little ridiculous. So then guys would offer us money and were like no we don’t really teach professionally but if you’re going to pay $400 well take you out for a day. So we take guys out for a day and they would have awesome results and they would be like yo, they’d go to their friends and they’d be like yo, you guys got to do this. Like these guys know what they’re doing and they’d get girlfriends and stuff and word of mouth sort of spread and we were making a bunch of extra dough on the side. So we were like this is great. This is good extra money just to hang out on the weekend with guys that are cool guys. They just need a little prodding. They need a lot of coaching. They need the system outlined for them. They need some drills, exercises and things like that and we just developed all that stuff because we’ve been in school for so darn long. We know how to teach people stuff. I’ve been teaching martial arts for a long time. So I knew a lot about repetition drills.

Nick: You systemized it.

Jordan: Yeah we systemized it and that’s the system that’s been evolving for the last better part of a decade that AJ and I developed into curriculum that existed here at the art of charm which is the business that came from the pickup podcast and the reason the podcast itself started was because guys were like listen you need to make cds or something or write a blog and AJ and I were like listen were reading constantly writing constantly for grad school. I am definitely not starting a blog. So we bought some mics and we recorded a couple of episodes in AJ's basement. First week was 30 downloads and we were super stoked and then the next week it was 800 and we were lot whoa that’s a lot and now its 1.2 million. So it’s ridiculous and it’s off the hook. Now that coaching has become our full time jobs I left Wall Street after getting a job in Wall Street after law school and moved to New York. AJ left med school and grad school and were now running the art of charm full time.

Nick: That’s awesome. It sounds like you had a few barriers you had to hop through. Like you’re in med school and law school respectively and you had a few barriers you had to hop through to do this full time. What was it like overcoming those barriers?

Jordan: Well starting a business is all about jumping over hurdles constantly I think and obviously were still doing that. everyday there’s something a new challenge which is great and exciting but when you have a full time job, when you’re a lawyer on wall street the biggest barrier is honestly your comfort zone because you’re thinning I worked really long to get this job on wall street. It’s a really good job. Everyone is like wow you’re a lawyer on Wall Street. Holy crap. I look at my bank account and I’m like pat myself on the back. I don’t mind if I do and I look at my mounting law school debt which is outrageous because it’s going to Michigan law is like 40 grand a year or something outrageous plus all the other debt that I had and I wants exactly saving money as a student. I travelled abroad for three straight years. Went out a lot. Bought a lot of stuff because I knew I was going to be a lawyer on Wall Street so I was like I’m not going to have any issues with money later on. so I had a bunch of debt from school so I look at, the job was easily paying the debt and it’s like am I really just going to leave this thing that I worked for so long and then jump headfirst into financial uncertainty in the middle of a recession or rather this is pre recession but things weren’t exactly looking up at that time either and then kind of start my own business. Something I don’t know anything about. I have no way, there’s no mentors that we had at the time. Nobody was telling us how to do it. We’re winging it and we have no real roadmap of any kind. So it’s like that was really tough. getting over the fear was tough but it was also exciting and so that was one of the reasons that I knew I could do it was because of what we call resiliency which is that I knew I had the capability to try something, possibly fail and still get back up on my feet again.

Nick: That’s huge.

Jordan: Yeah. I kept telling myself I can’t fail and at some level I do believe that but on the other hand should everything hit the fan fall apart overnight. I’m still going to be okay and I know that because I’m strong dude. I’ve gone through a lot of stuff so even if my business does collapse I’m just going to start over and do something else.

Nick: So what tips would you give to people that are looking to become more resilient. What would you say to that?

Jordan: I would say if you’re looking to become more resilient you have to push yourself outside your comfort zone. All the time. you have to be constantly pushing yourself outside your comfort zone because that’s what says if you’re pushing the envelope you know where that line is cause you’re constantly trying to cross it and once you find out that the line isn’t here its actually two miles that way then you know that hey if I get knocked around a little bit I’m not going to fall off the tower. I’ve got a lot more space here than I think. I lot more room for error and the safety net is a lot softer than I thought. Even if you’re like hey listen I’ve got all this mounting debt. I don’t know what I’m going to do. What would I do if my business fell apart? I don’t know right now. I don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about plan B and I’ve never had to.

Nick: You’ll figure it out.

Jordan: I’ll figure it out if I have to and plan A so far has a little bit of luck but a lot of just determination. If you’re not thinking what happens if I fail? If you’re not constantly planning for failure and you’re going I’m just going to succeed and do that then you’re not really splitting up that focus.

Nick: So it’s a positive mindset.

Jordan: Yeah positive mindset but I don’t want guys to get wrapped up in like waking up in the mirror every morning straightening their tie and be like I’m good enough. I’m smart enough and people like me. That may or may not work. I don’t know but what I do know works is going for what you want and not thinking well if it doesn’t happen I’m just going to do this. then what happens is you self sabotage and you start steering in this direction cause if you start steering the car this way but your worries are sort of making you do one of these where the tires aren’t aligned correctly because your beliefs are going that way and you’re trying to steer to the right. This not going to happen. You’re always going to be pulling in that direction because that’s where your comfort zone is. Your comfort zone is I should just get a real job where my paycheck is steady because I know that I’ve got a law degree and I’m always going to be employable in that area. great but if you’re constantly thinking about that that’s where you’re going to end up because to be an entrepreneur, to start off on your own that’s much harder than going hey where’s my health insurance forms and how do I find the HR office to pick up my check. that’s a lot easier than finding out how to market, start something that people want and get them to buy it and then make it work for you. Make the number work.

Nick: But it sounds like the second step is a lot more rewarding.

Jordan: I agree a 100%. I think that being an entrepreneur is a dream come true for me. I’ve always been entrepreneurial even as a kid but I definitely don’t recommend it for everyone. I think a lot of people now with the economy down are going I’m going to start my own business. I think it’s awesome. I think people should try to start their own business if they have any interest in doing so but there’s a big difference between having your own business and being an entrepreneur and I know maybe the dictionary doesn’t support that analysis but there really is because a lot of guys are like I sell floral arrangements that I grow on my backyard on eBay. Great but you’re not really an entrepreneur. Maybe you kind of are but really it’s a business that you use to supplement your income and more power to you it’s awesome. I’m not looking down on those people at all but there’s a huge difference between doing that with selling something on eBay and making extra money on the side and starting a business that requires a whole marketing campaign, credibility, competitive intelligence, start up capital. I mean they’re two different animals.

Nick: So how would you define an entrepreneur in a sense?

Jordan: An entrepreneur is somebody who you know what it’s really unfair of me to define this. I don’t think I want to attack that because it’s unfair of me. what I do I don’t even call myself an entrepreneur cause I kind of think of people who do that are like trying to be oh I’m an entrepreneur. It almost makes me laugh because if someone says that that’s what they do usually it means they don’t really have anything going on at the time. It means they kind of want that. That’s just my personal analysis from meeting a lot of other entrepreneurs who are really successful. None of those guys call themselves entrepreneurs. They say I sell shoes online or something and that’s cool and then you find out they make $58 million a year selling shoes online but that’s a different story or yeah I run a marketing business. Oh cool. Yeah I make $58,000 a month in my marketing business. They’re not going to tell you that until you’ve been friends with them for a while. Those people are entrepreneurs. The guys who say they’re entrepreneurs usually you’ll find out that they sell like Chinese knock off head phones on eBay and they’re currently trying to figure out why their merchant account got shut down. Those are the people that I usually run into that say well I’m a businessman. I’ve got six businesses. I’m up to my ears in one business trying to make that work and trying to watch the brand. When people tell me they have five I’m like oh okay. Either you don’t sleep or they’re not really businesses or you have other people running them for you otherwise. So I’m not really going to attack the what is an entrepreneur question. All I know is that the word gets thrown around a lot and usually the people throwing it around are not entrepreneurs.

Nick: Got you. So you’re one of the boldest guys I know and I’ve interacted with you a lot. So what you say people like to describe you as bold would be describing? Your thoughts...

Jordan: I’m abrasive. I’m not sure.

Nick: The whole package.

Jordan: I’m not exactly sure. When I think bold usually I think of somebody who’s bold instead of confident which is not a good thing. Its guys who are like really obnoxious. so hopefully that’s not what people are thinking but I’m sure there’s a contingent that already does think that but really when I think bold I think people who to synonymise it with confidence might be more accurate in this case because the guys that I know you’ve come across and interviewed on your show before and hopefully I know my mommy tells me all the time that I could do whatever I want in life and I think that difference between people who are bold and those who maybe aren’t so much are people who are really bold. They look at what they want and they figure I can do this. They don’t necessarily have to strategize the whole plan about how to accomplish it but they believe that they can do it and suddenly hey this is working. I’m making it happens or if they’re not making it happen. They go why? Is it my fault? Is it something that I’m doing? Are the circumstances different? What do I need to do to get this done? So there’s a lot of tenacity there. there's definitely a lot of really intelligent, a lot of thinking and brain power going into whatever they’re doing but mostly there’s a whole heck of a lot of confidence in that and belief in themselves. There’s a whole lot of belief in themselves. There’s a whole lot of resiliency and guys think listen I have the capability to make this work. so I don’t have a plan but I definitely have the willingness to execute and those people are bold because a lot of ideas are out there that are awesome and whenever I think of man if I’d known this in the past I would have made so much money and I think back and I look at some of the things I wrote when I was even a teenager and I think man I knew that that was a good idea and it would have made me rich but I didn’t do it and the reason I didn’t do it wants because I don’t have the willingness to execute it cause I didn’t have any passion for those ideas. like I thought even in the 90s I thought hey you know I could probably get a couple of thousand bucks from friends and family and buy domains and I was going to buy domains like ford.com cause my dad worked there. I was thinking about that in like 1994, 1995. Had I bought that I would not have collegiate debt whatsoever. My law school would have been paid for by that type of flip.

Nick: So you’re a big fan of passionate sounds like?

Jordan: I’m a big fan of passion. I think that’s what bold people really have. It’s not just the resiliency. It’s not just the tenacity or confidence. Its passion in what you’re going to do because if you want to make something happen what are you doing at four o'clock in the morning on a Tuesday when something is not working in your business. Are you up doing it because you feel like you have to? Are you up doing it because you really love what you’re doing and you’re passionate about it or are you sleeping and going oh my Gosh I wish I had a regular job.

Nick: It’s interesting you’re in that third scenario. It’s like let’s get out of this.

Jordan: Then you’re in the wrong industry. Sometimes you’re up doing it because you have to because your website is down not because you’re like wow I just love fixing websites. Sometimes I’m up at four o'clock in the morning editing audio cause I think it’s an awesome show and I can’t wait to rip through it and I can’t wait to release it because I know the audience is going to love it. Very seldom do I encounter anything for longer than two or three seconds where I wish I had a regular job. That might happen on nights where I’m sleepless because I’m thinking uh-oh the numbers didn’t match up this week and I don’t know what’s going on. that freaks me out but then you know I’ll sleep til 9:30 and go up on the roof and sit next to my pool or something in the morning and listen to an hour of audio and take a nap and go that regular job thing sucks. Never mind. I wouldn’t be able to do this and then I’ll stay up again til four, five o'clock in the morning working because I love what I do.

Nick: So it definitely has its benefits. You definitely recommend it. It sounds like to anyone looking to start their own business if they have the passion for it.

Jordan: You have to find something that you’re passionate about. you can’t be passionate about being your own boss and starting your own business cause that’s where I think a lot of guys mess it up. A lot of guys get it wrong and they go I really just don’t want to have a regular job. I really want to be my own boss and you think okay that’s great but that’s not going to keep you motivated to do what you’re doing. If you’re buying domains or something, I’m just using them; I’m picking on those guys because we were just talking about it. I have no problem with people who flip domains really but if you’re doing that and you’re thinking the reason I do this is because I want to be my own boss and I want to sleep til 11AM every day. That’s cool for a while but eventually you’re going to go there’s no reward here beside from monetary and a little bit of freedom. all of the guys that I know that do stuff like that of those guys there’s like a huge majority of they’re like yeah I’m doing x, y and z generating traffic. something internet based, IT based but what I really want to do is find something else that I like and even if those guys are making millions of dollars a year doing what they’re doing they’re still looking to find something else that they like and I think that I got really lucky finding something that I really, really love that is hugely rewarding and it’s also financially rewarding.

Nick: Cause it seems like at some point if you pick something you’re not passionate about you’re going to hit a plateau and ultimately you need to find something else to keep going and I think a lot of people that jump into the business to start their own business in order to just be their own boss they hit that plateau rather early and it’s not fun anymore. So I have a theory that most people that are very successful have a lot of knowledge in one spot and then broad knowledge about a lot of other things. They’re interested in lot of other things. That makes you T shaped and dangerous as I call it.

Jordan: Dangerous, I like it.

Nick: And I think that is something that you definitely have. You have law school experience. You have social dynamics which can probably pretty much never plateau on.

Jordan: Right. Yeah. That’s always increasing.

Nick: And a tons of other things that you’re passionate about like audio series. You’re excited about this stuff and that’s really good to see. Is there anything that you would recommend like off the bat to someone to find out what they’re passionate about?

Jordan: It’s really tough. I mean I thought about this in the past and I think the reason to where I am is because when I was younger I was an exchange student early, early on and...

Nick: What years?

Jordan: 98, I was an exchange student in 98. I travelled in Europe in I think 95 with my friend and his mom. We had just graduated from middle school I think and we went to Europe. No one has done that in America. People go to Europe when they’re like 30 or in their 20s. They’re like I got to go to Europe. I went there a decade plus before anybody else had by pure luck.

Nick: So you were like 14?

Jordan: I was 14 years old. Yeah I think at that time. Fourteen or 15 at most.

Nick: So like middle school time.

Jordan: Yeah I was really young and it was cool because me and my best friend went with his mom who was like this single mother who’s really chill and laid back. She would just let us run around Italy and be like yeah I’m going to go to the museum. Be back at the hotel by 9PM well have dinner. So me and my buddy were running around meeting this Italians and they were like let’s go meet some girls. So we’d be like I don’t know how to do that shit. I don’t want to meet chicks. So they’re like oh it’s not hard come on. so we’d be talking to these German girls and the Italian guys were like listen you just try to kiss them and they will eventually they will allow you. I’m like that’s not going to work and we actually had pretty mixed results cause we were young and it was just like hey they’re like douche. Pretend you’re Italian, it’s all good. I was like alright fine whatever. so me and my buddy ran around Rome talking to girls, meeting people and I was like this is the most fun I’ve ever had in my life and at the time I didn’t realize it was so much fun because I really was interested in people. I thought hey I’m in a place that’s foreign that’s really cool. So that was middle school. I transitioned to high school and in high school I was an exchange student in the former East Germany. That was in 98. So I went there. I learned a lot of German. I became fluent in German. Went to public school, hung out, met a lot of people. That really got the travel bug in me because my volunteer adviser at the exchange organization that I went with which was AFS. If anybody's interested in becoming an exchange student I highly recommend it. AFS.org I think is their website. I went on an exchange there. That change my whole life. Still the best year of my life hands down, learned a lot about travel. My volunteer adviser took me to the Netherlands, Italy, all kinds of different places in and around Germany, Oktoberfest. All kinds of really fun stuff and bear in mind I’m like 17 at this time.

Nick: So you’ve experienced a lot abroad. All this started time back to social dynamics it sounds like.

Jordan: It started in Germany at this passion in me where I was like I really love learning about people, culture, language, how that influences everything. What makes people tick and then after a while I kind of went you know what I’ve got a knack for this like a strong knack for this. so when I started learning about women, dating, social dynamics, rapport, attraction, that type of stuff it really blended in really well with everything that I’ve been learning for the past ten plus years travelling around the world. Meeting people of different cultures, finding out what people have in common, getting into and out of trouble overseas, languages I don’t even speak. So that type of situation really helped me formulate what I wanted to do. A lot of people don’t have that advantage. A lot of people spent years being beaten into submission at school, being good little boys and girls doing their homework, joining five sports team to keep busy and keep fit and playing soccer and football and hockey because they felt like they had to. A lot of people spend their time doing that. Now that’s going to be trickier to find your passion that way. I wish I had a simple drill to find out what makes you passionate but what I would look at is what’s your hobby and unfortunately we have to actually ask ourselves do you like this hobby because you enjoy it or do you just do it because you started 10 years ago and you have a bunch of the crap for it already. Like that’s not a good reason. If that is not something you really enjoy what would you really enjoy? If you could anything regardless of time, cost, whatever what would it be? Explore that even if you can’t afford to do it because you can just read about it on the internet. what is it the you want to do and you have to look at that and you have to figure out how can I get more involved in that and that’s just the beginning of finding something that you’re passionate about. It’s something that wakes you up at night and excites. It’s something that gets you up in the morning. If you could do it full time don’t think would I do this full time instead of my current job because the answer is almost certainly yes if you hate your current job. the answer is what would you do if you could do anything regardless of time or money and the answer is I would travel around the world eating all kinds of different food well maybe you’re really interested in travelling around the world, eating all kinds of different foods, I mean this is really obvious but a lot of people think well there’s a million reasons I can’t do that but they don’t think about how they could get started doing that. Nobody ever thinks like that. Few people rather think like that. They think about why it would never work because they’re in their comfort zone and they want to stay there, their body wants to stay there.

Nick: So push out the comfort zone is a big part...

Jordan: Push the envelope. For example if you think wow I would be the next Anthony Bourdain. Well you don’t have to follow in his footsteps and do exactly what he did. He didn’t know that he was going to end up with an awesome TV show 10, 20 years ago. He was probably just busy eating. So why not go on a vacation to some place random that has really exotic food. Go to Cambodia and try the street food. Eat the weird little bird egg things and the cacti and the fried spiders and stuff like that that they have and take a bunch of pictures. Take a bunch of video. make a blog about it and go on a promotion campaign where you ask other bloggers and food bloggers to link to you and guest post on their sites because people who eat a lot of really interesting food are probably going to be interested in wait minute, they roast tarantulas on the side of the road in Cambodia and you can buy a bucket for 25 cents. Yeah and here’s what they look like and here’s the process. They’re delicious and here’s a video of me eating one. I’ve got a video of me eating a cobra in Vietnam and drinking the heart in a glass of vodka and I just did it because I thought I want the experience. People see that and they go what. How come that is not online? This is ridiculous I can’t believe it. If that’s the type of experience that you want you can turn it into something that will pay you to continue doing it. You just need to figure out the angles.

Nick: That’s awesome. So typically I ask everyone what their secret sauce is. What would you say yours is? It seems like its pretty much passion and persistence.

Jordan: Passion and persistence. You’ve got to think and passion kind of makes up...persistence comes real easy when you’re really passionate about what you’re doing. for example on days where I’m only reaching peoples voicemail or I get a bunch of nasty letters and I’m also hung over at the same time like those aren’t my days but I don’t go this sucks I want to go back to law. I go at the end of the day I think about all the positive things that are in my life. The fact that I’m doing this and I’m helping tens of thousands of guys every single day who are using this stuff that we teach and basically to make their lives better. That’s really rewarding. The passion helps with the persistence there. Other aspects of the secret sauce is figuring out how to give other people value and then actually providing that value because it will come back to you in abundance and you just have to believe in that. So I have a lot of faith in our own methods of what we teach. I apply everything that we teach and by actually seeing the rewards of what we teach I really believe in it because it’s a cycle. It reinforces itself. then I know not only are we teaching awesome stuff and this stuff works but that I actually can overcome any issue because we have the technology that we have invented to overcome these issues in the first place. So that’s kind of the secret sauce is really believing in what you do and that’s not just passion. Passion means really loving what you do, really believing in what you do is a key ingredient to what we do here at the art of charm.

Nick: That’s awesome. So let me wrap this up with one last question. If you spend one day with anyone in the world dead or alive who would it be?

Jordan: That’s a good question. you know what I’m not even sure, this is the type of thing I have to like research really but I would say it’s probably going to somebody like Winston Churchill cause that guy was such a badass and you look at him and you’re like he looks like a slobby dude and he wasn’t like a badass warrior guy but he was and you look at him and this is one of the most resilient guys. I mean he’s in charge of a country that is next to the world’s biggest evil at the time and is also, they’re this island literally in Europe that is the last bastion of freedom in the world aside from the united states at the time which is really far out of harm’s way at that particular point and he is sitting there with V2's or whatever rockets bombing the capital city. He’s probably underground 95% of the time of the because he’s going to get, people are trying to blow him up and assassinate him and he’s telling the whole country listen we got to rally. We’ve got a choice here. This is not the time to go and think about what we were talking about before. Where can I kind of go, where’s the comfortable part? Maybe I can go back to my family when I was in Austria. Oh this whole Nazis thing might not be so bad. Looks like we’re about to lose anyway. No he’s telling everybody listen. if you have any shred of strength left and if you can manufacture one or find one you better dig it up now because we are in, this is it people and the whole country had to get behind him. The United States had to get behind him. Everybody has to rally behind this slobby bald dude and be like lead us to freedom. I mean that is an incredible dude right there and he had a lot of adversity and he definitely look death straight in the face and went alright were going to make this happen or I’m going to die trying. So that’s why I think it would probably be somebody like Winston Churchill, total badass and he had some pretty awesome quotes too.

Nick: Awesome. Do you any off the top of your head?

Jordan: No. I can’t remember anything.

Nick: Alright cool. Thanks for sitting down with me.

Jordan: Absolutely man. It is awesome.

Nick: You can find him at theartofcharm.com and also pickup podcast and soon to be AJandJordantalkchicks.com.

Jordan: That’s right and you can of course find me on facebook. I answer all my messages on facebook always. Alright man.

Nick: Alright dude.