Interview with Copywriter James Lee

Nick: I got to sit down with James Lee. He’s a total copywriting ninja and he has come with tons and tons of experiences from the real world and moved it to the internet world. Today we're going to learn about how he transitioned and a little bit about his story and how he became successful. So without further adieu, let's get into it. I’m here with James Lee of James Lee copywriting.

James: That's right.

Nick: And as you may have guessed, he does copywriting. Before we get into that, tell me about one unique thing about yourself that makes you special?

James: Okay, first thanks for having me.

Nick: Right.

James: I appreciate it. One thing about me that makes me special, I am a competing amateur muay thai kickboxing fighter so yeah, I fight on the amateur level in kickboxing.

Nick: Very cool. How is that?

James: It is one of the most gruelling things I’ve ever done in my life. but it is such a positive thing actually, the discipline, the work ethic and pushing myself beyond boundaries and limitations that I thought that I had or I knew I had has really bled into other areas of my life. It made me more disciplined and tougher mentally as result so I can’t say no enough about it.

Nick: Very cool. Very cool. So I mentioned that you do copywriting. How did you get into that?

James: Well I was actually in real estate and mortgage and like any ambitious person I think there's always that question at the back of your mind, how do I do this better? How do I do this, how do I make this easier for me? How do I get this to be automated for myself? And so even though the real estate boomed around 2004, 2005 was happening, I was having these thoughts, these questions and that led me to an individual who was doing in direct response marketing for the mortgage industry. and so I came across this huge long paged sales letter and I was immediately intrigued and printed the whole thing out and read the entire thing and you know, I realized there was a sign to marketing and that was a huge a-ha for me. That there was a formula, that there was a linear process where you can attract the types of people that you want into your business as opposed to the traditional real estate role of going after people.

Nick: Right.

James: You know the shotgun approach, that kind of thing and so that actually led me to practicing copywriting for myself and for my real estate and mortgage business and that led to me with getting it and generating needs for my 2:22.4 and all that stuff and so, that's how it really began and I remember distinctly reading a sales letter book by the name of John Kennedy who is a big guru in the direct response market industry and after maybe reading half the book, I ripped out this 25-paged sales letter for hotel and motel financing.

Nick: Its fun topics.

James: Yeah. Totally fantastic. I had a great time writing it but regardless, I did this and went to this marketing conference with one of my mentors who read my sales and said, you know James; this isn’t typical for someone to be able to do this.

Nick: Right.

James: And I just figured, I just did what, Kennedy told me to do the book but it turns out I have a bit of an act for this and so at that point, I realized that I did my mentor confirmed all that, kind of pushed me into this direction. That was my first, my jump off point for copywriting.

Nick: So you mentioned you had a mentor and I kind of have a theory that all people tend to have, tend to mimic someone else or have someone show them how it's done. So how important was your mentor in your life? Or has or have mentors been in your life? In general, just like people they helped you along the way?

James: Oh yeah. I would say that mentors have had an, I can’t even describe how much of the impact that mentors had in my life. not just from that gentleman who was a guru in the mortgage industry but to people who I’ve never even met before who I consider my mentors, to people who, and my friends who are better than me in some areas I consider mentors. You know we talk a lot about areas of business, I consider you a mentor in many ways.

Nick: Likewise.

James: There you go so my philosophy and I know; it's like we spoke about this before, is that I can learn something from everybody and if I can learn something from you, and I can learn something from everybody then everybody is my mentor. and I’d be the happiest guy, I’m the happiest guy in the world when I’m the dumbest guy in the room, and I can learn something from everybody. so that's like the long, general answer but there had been very specific people to have guided me and brought me to the place I am right now and you know we could talk about that like, but mentors have been instrumental in my career.

Nick: Definitely. So you got your start in mortgage, in copywriting in what not, so what are you up to now?

James: Well, before the real estate boomed, actually busted

Nick: Right.

James: I realized that real estate and mortgage wasn’t something that I really got my jack up and you know I think it was around 2007 when I really had a soul searching kind of a personal conversation. And I thought to myself what is it that makes me really happy? Is it crunching numbers from mortgages and showing properties and doing those kinds of things? I said no, it's not that. It was actually the marketing aspect, the copywriting, the consulting, all the things that entail putting the business together from the ground up that made me happy. So I kind of put my energy out there, said a short prayer and I put my shingle out. I said I’m going to do marketing and consulting. That’s where really one of my mentors kind of popped up. I’m sure you're aware of the phrase when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Nick: Exactly.

James: Right? And so, I knew that the internet was going to be my vehicle to success. And at this point all I really had was a really a good grasp of copywriting. I wasn’t really up to date with technology or anything like that and that comes naturally to me. I did realize that a mentor, someone who can hold your hand every step of the way and understand the inner workings of a successful business, modelling yourself on that was the way that I needed to learn. I can learn from a chorus. There’s too many intangibles there, I need to be in the trenches, in the line of fire kind of thing. so I made a shortlist of the internet marketing gurus I guess you could say in my area coz I was going to work directly with them and one by one I start hunting them down.

Nick: How'd you go about doing that? For the take away of the viewers, he found out who he wanted to mimic.

James: Yup.

Nick: And who he could learn from and then you chase him down? Bang on their door? Crazy dude...

James: It was probably half and half. I made the short list of 6:49.7 work with. Probably half a dozen guys in this area, in the Los Angeles area in that one right now, where I live. Literally, just by order of parody, I said all these qualities of this guy that I’ve seen. I’ve checked out all their landing pages, their websites, assign of their lists. I did about three months of research and I realized there were 5 to 6 guys I want to work with. One by one I started emailing them. One gentleman and I know he doesn’t mind because we're great friends today is a gentleman by the name of Mark Witthour.

Nick: Okay.

James: Mark has this really interesting thing where on his landing pages, there is a question and answer box. And literally, he'll spend certain amount of time answering questions on his most trafficked websites. So I sit there and said, do you have a question about this product or this whatever it might be? Alright. And I just put it in here and so, one day, I just said hi. Are you there? He says, hi how can I help you? Is this the Mark Witthour? Yea it is. Gone to a conversation and I basically pitched the crap out of myself. It was so wild until he finally agreed to meet me. Told me to bring samples of my copywriting because my page, my only wedge and this would be a great relationship take away for anyone who is watching this. You got to bring value. You can’t just; I think everyone's heard of the "I will slave away and do anything", while that's kind of intriguing I guess to have like a personal slave or whatever might be. It’s like what can you bring to the table that I can benefit from? And so my wedge was copywriter. I said you obviously write copy for your business, you obviously write a lot of it, what if you could just hand that all off to me? How much time would that free up for you to do all the other things you want to do? I kept harping on this. I looked at this side, look what I did here, look what I did there. Finally he says, okay. Meet me here, this time at this place and bring your samples and we'll figure it out. So I said, yes. went in there and it was such an interesting experience because he basically said, hi nice to meet you, sift through my stuff and said okay, I guess, alright, here's your first assignment. I said okay, what's going on here?

Nick: Awkward danced a little bit...

James: Yeah, did the awkward dance and he said right, like a 9:14.0 that has to do this and I want it in a couple of days. Okay so I did.

Nick: Our respondent for the audience.

James: Our respondent would be like a sequential email series that happens after somebody becomes a part of the site, joins your email list. In that nature. Without getting specifics, just some good research that has to be done if you want to do a good hour respondent series and so I basically pulled an all nighter. The under promise of deliver thing, I said two days. I gave it the next day. I didn’t hear from him. Pins and needles, I didn’t know what was going on. And so finally I think 2 or 3 days later, he sends back the document that I sent and slaved over I thought it was so good. And when I opened it up to my chagrin, it was just inked up. The correction, the word format and this sucks because of this and this sucks because of that. And this doesn’t work here and so sitting here, my hearts goes <makes sounds>.

Nick: Was it hard to pull yourself out of that until like you're whole person you stay on to that and do what you want. I know you for that.

James: The interesting story is I sat and said huh? I really messed up and that's I think an important point is that you don’t deny it sometimes when you feel disappointed or when you feel like you fail. You have to pull yourself out. You have to think, alright so how do I learn from this? Luckily there was a guy on his team who sees on everything. He said, James, he sent me a separate email without cc-ing Mark. He said James; you can look at this on one of two ways. This is a great lesson; this is a great take away as well. Here’s the first way to look at, you can tuck tail. You can be really sad and miserable and then run away. Like this has happened before. Second thing you can do is, understand all the changes that need to be made. Catalog them, apply them and understand that if he didn’t want to invest time in you, he didn’t see potential; he wouldn’t make all these changes. Right?

Nick: It's huge.

James: And I said, you're so wise man. I did everything he said, shut the email and sent the document back to mark. He said fine, here's your next assignment. No hesitation, no pause, no word of hey good job or anything like that. This happened for about seriously for like two months.

Nick: You were like boom boom boom.

James: Killer internship. Finally after that point, he said, let's hurry one. Alright. Will give you some money, I’ll bring you into the business and here's how things work. And that was the insane year and a half I ever had in my life.

Nick: Lots of writing?

James: Oh not just writing but you know, every facet of a successful internet marketing business and that's where I learned everything I needed to learn to get where I am today.

Nick: I like it.

James: Kicked down his door, I worked for free and slaved away but it was all worth it and I totally advise people to do the same. If you get the opportunity I mean.

Nick: Exactly. Often when you're entering like a business of any sort, I find that there's some sort of a hurdle that you always have to get over in order to the door. Often, sometimes there's someone else kicking down the door sometimes it's you physically kicking down the door. And then sometimes your personality opens it up. Sometimes it's a mix of persistency and personality there.

James: Yeah, I would say. If there was an obstacle, a barrier of getting me into the internet marketing space where I am right now, that was it. You know what I mean? And so it was through mark and my internship. My apprenticeship that I would call it but I met his entire network of people that set me up for coffee relationships in the future. His entire information library that he had sitting up there because he's friends with all the big dogs that educated me. His expertise of beating one of the smartest guys I ever met in my life, sitting 5 feet to my left, and I say how do you this? And say datarararara. Okay thanks. That experience was invaluable. It was feet to the fire baptism. Baptism fire kind of deal. And that really shaped who I am today and I can’t really give enough credit for that.

Nick: I like that.

James: That was my obstacle overcoming story.

Nick: That's pretty bold. If one of your friends was going to describe you, would they call you bold like so? For example, someone besides me would describe you as bold, what would they be describing your physical attributes? Your ideas, your personality, the whole package.

James: I would say that, I don’t know if this is the platform for tooting my own horn or anything, I would like to think that there's a little bit of everything that is instrumental in someone's success. Or at least in my case, I do feel like I’m pretty socially sensitive. I understand how people work. I like to interact with people and that's someone who's just a black and white, kind of like my way or the highway that kind of thing. I think that'll only get you so far in life. so I think that people would, I think that there is that some kind of a whole smorgasbord of the things that come into whatever success I have right now in being a bold person. But I would say that the one thing that kind of describes me is that I’m really not scared to fail. I really like to fail forward, to fail fast to see all these things that don’t work so I could kind of figure out a way that does work.

Nick: I like that.

James: Yeah. And so I’m not sure where it's from exactly but my business partner and I, we talk all the time. It’s funny because between the two of us, we will fail so quickly so fast. One of these ways has got to be right. We’re just not scared. One thing that's always going to happen is we're always going to swing for the fences and if we strike out so be it but god, we're going to try.

Nick: I like that. That’s a big portion of being bold. You do what you want to do and the outcome is going to happen, whatever it is. More times than not, you're successful. And that's what's about.

James: Edison failed like a thousand quadrillion times before he invented the light bulb or something like that. All the great people, they failed a lot and they learned their lessons.

Nick: And there's no better training, even Machiavelli said, like who wouldn’t want to hire someone who failed multiple times on the competitor's dime? Essentially, not in those words, dimes like that but you know, like he knew that failing was a good way to learn. That was very big. That’s in the prints and I took that out of it. Seriously I read that. That was big.

James: A good book by the way.

Nick: Yeah. So you know I have a theory that everyone has yourself. Right, so what would your say be from what I’m hearing? I’m hearing is persistence, a lot of it. A whole lot of persistence.

James: Yeah. I mean, you got to have that. I got to tell you though, I guess persistence, it does have a lot to do with getting rejected a lot and experiencing a lot of failure and I find myself as someone who is a little bit adverse to being rejected. You know it doesn’t sit well with me.

Nick: I think everyone to some extent.

James: Yeah. A lot of people though are a little bit more okay with it. It’s not as painful for them so I’ve really had to try and find the ways to persist more. Past all these feelings and it's an ever changing journey but I would say that the secret sauce is just knowing that no matter what happens that you're pressing forward. that no matter what happens, when you do have a goal being grateful for having that goal in the first place because most people out there are sleepwalking and I hate to say that but the general population most people do have jobs and as much as I don’t like down on who people who have jobs but when you think about it, so 9 to 5 is the typical workday right?

Nick: Right.

James: And you're offering your best energy. You wake up; you have like a cup of coffee or in your case some good tea.

Nick: Yeah.

James: Right? And then you're spending the fruit of your day, the most beautiful energetic portion of your day working at a job that you don’t like. For me, it seems kind of insane.

Nick: Right.

James: You know? But most people in the world, I’m talking about the 90% of whatever, they're doing that.

Nick: Not everyone's all secure.

James: Right. And so I think just having a goal and a vision and an opportunity to do something like this is enough to be grateful and to be appreciative. And so I think despite the persistence and all that stuff, there is just the gratefulness for being in the position that we are in as entrepreneurs, as dreamers and as visionaries. And to act on it. I think that's something that is we owe to the rest of the people out there who are not so quite fortunate. That’s probably the secret sauce for me. Appreciation and gratitude.

Nick: It's a good take away. I mean like coz I think really not everyone has the opportunity and really hopefully people will get inspired from watching this.

James: I hope so.

Nick: Like hopefully they'll jump out there and get, take those opportunities that they see.

James: Nothing would make me happier.

Nick: Yeah. So I have two more questions.

James: Sure.

Nick: If you could spend a day with anyone in the world, who would it be?

James: Hmmm... you know I was having a conversation with my dad just last night. And I never knew my grandfather.

Nick: Really?

James: So if I could spend a day and he was saying stories, you know. It’s kind of that age where, you know they say that success or a man's worth, or anyone's worth really, it comes in four different stages. One is survival. Right? Where we just kind of figure stuff out. Right? The other is stability when you're like okay everything's cool, I’ve made my monthly not let's say, everything is coming. Then there's success. You’re kind of living the cool life. Then significance though, it moves past that when you get, what's the legacy I leave behind? My dad is a pretty successful guy at this point. He has language schools across California. One really big one is thinking of branching out and so, he passed the success point. He does it because he loves it. He doesn’t have to work anymore but he's in the significance portion so, now we're having some more interesting talks. We’re kind of getting down into the emotional bonding part. I’m really kind of looking forward to it. It kind of scares me but it's good, you know.

Nick: Right.

James: So he was talking about his father who he lost at, not at an early age, but in an unfortunate accident. And so he tells stories and I realized he was a very interesting man who I think was very similar to me, I think. I wanted to understand what that link is like coz once my dad's gone, I kind of like, you know I would love to have just spent the day with him and see what he was all about. The man he was. What advice he had, you know. What he was like when he was growing up in a completely different generation and age and country, in Korea, and things like that. Literally, if I could spend a day with anyone, it would be with my grandfather. Yeah, so. How’s that?

Nick: Okay. I always ask this. Just a good take away for everyone watching. What three books would you recommend to the audience? That changed your life, or practically impacted you.

James: Those are two different, three different sets, two different sets of three books then. You know what I mean.

Nick: Right.

James: How about I tell you what books influenced me the most?

Nick: Okay.

James: You know, it maybe not necessary business books that I would recommend to the other people but for some reason, I just have a strange.

Nick: Well this is about you.

James: Okay. Well, umm. This might be cliche to say but rich dad, poor dad.

Nick: Okay.

James: And the reason why it did is not because I look back on it, it's not one of those books that I think and grow rich, or like the bible or something like that that you go back and you read every so often and you go, wow it's such a really good book that I could take so much out of it. It’s because it just gave me one little idea and that little idea was, and I think it had something to do with like 21:25.9. That’s something I had no idea about right now but it basically turned that knob, that entrepreneurial switch on in me. That’s that way I had control over business. Like there is a market of stuff that I can exploit as a broker. Someone wants it and that means that I can be the middle man and take money in between. And not in the necessarily like a mercenary I’m going to take money and fleece this guy but just wow, wait a second. There are systems also. Just other opportunities that exist.

Nick: So it opened your eyes.

James: It totally did. Every book from then on out was with that new lens. You know what I mean? Before that, it was like oh hey fiction, nonfiction. Cool, what is this all about? Suddenly, oh my god there's something here. There’s opportunity I have, I can forge my path. I can create my own destiny that kind of thing. That 22:19.4 rich dad, poor dad. I never read it again but just, it gave that one idea and that's all we need sometimes, one idea.

Nick: Right.

James: Second book was a copywriting book by a gentleman by the name of john Carlton.

Nick: Okay.

James: And John Carlton’s one of the most respected rip off copywriters alive. And he's just an absolute stud and a monster. His book is just hilarious. It’s called, kick ass copywriting secrets of a marketing rebel.

Nick: Boy, it's a got a hook in it, right there.

James: Yeah. And there you go.

Nick: There's your reason to read.

James: Kick ass copywriting secrets of a marketing rebel, and it's funny because I had read a few other copywriting books like the one I told you about earlier like Kennedy’s book but for some reason, what Carlton’s book did is it put a frame around copywriting. It put a formula behind copywriting. Something that could be followed in a to z format that made me go, oh my god. I can do this. If I just have these certain facets of, in my advertising piece, would that be an email or a space ad or newspaper or a magazine or a long sales copy letter or a squeeze page. If these elements are all placed in this ad, it's going to sell or it's going to have the best chances of selling. That book really turned the corner for me and to this day, it's dog eared and crap and filled with notes and ads.

Nick: It's those worthwhile books.

James: It's one of those books you know if you're inspiring to be a marketer or in direct response or any type of business really, copywriting in my opinion is the language of marketing so if you know how to do that, and today's age, you know what tweet, that's copy writing.

Nick: It is.

James: A hundred and forty characters. That’s copywriting. You know video sales letters. It’s copywriting. You have to script it out. You can’t just go out there and say hey, buy myself. You have to figure out what the emotions are behind that. And slowly and seductively have sales message that. It’s natural.

Nick: Right.

James: So that's the second book that really changed my life. Third one's completely out of the box. It doesn’t make any sense, its fiction. I love fiction. It was The Godfather by Mario Puzzo.

Nick: Better than the movie?

James: For all intents and purposes, if someone put a gun to my head, no pun intended because of the godfather. I mean an offer I can’t refuse, no, I would say yes.

Nick: Really?

James: That book, I don’t know what it did but it just, again, just as dog-eared and beat up as my copy of, yeah, I was reading this book and for some reason it just, it got me, sinister fraternity of crime and like all these layers of insulation in the dawn and these in the story, the machismo and all that. Maybe it's a guy thing but it taught me how to be like a mafia so crime boss. What did was a really cool piece of literature. I realized that something affected me and that how powerful words are I think. Really, what it boil down to. So, there it is. The godfather.

Nick: I like it. This one's, I got to ask. What one take away can you give the audience for copywriting? Coz I mean, you're the go to guy on this.

James: Yeah.

Nick: Like frame it. Give it an example. Something quick. Can you think of on top of your head?

James: I think that the easiest thing to do would be to talk. So everyone has an expertise, right? You’re in the market or business of something rather. So just pretend that your best friend, literally your best friend or your brother or someone very close to you had the problem that you could solve. Okay? How would you talk to that person? If you have to script it, if you have to talk into a tape recorder and let’s say you want to write a sales letter like an email that's explaining your product, your sales piece itself. I would pretend that it was my son, my dad, my someone who is very important to me sitting in front of me who said, nick I don’t know how to get my website to get traffic man. I have no idea what it would be. What would you say? And that would be, and that's going to be the best copy that you could ever write or produce because you'll be speaking from the heart. It’s not be gimmick to yourselves. All you're going to say is hey; this is the information I’d give you.

Nick: So record yourself and then transcribe it?

James: Transcribe it and edit. That’s actually an old junk tactic but that is such a fantastic way to get started as opposed to sitting and just looking at the blank piece of paper or on a blank screen. That’s how I would, that's the take away I would give to anyone who wants to start with a good piece of copy.

Nick: That's good. I like it.

James: That's it man.

Nick: Awesome. Thanks for doing the interview.

James: No problem.

Nick: After interviewing James Lee, I came away with some major takeaways. The first one was need to ask yourself, what is my legacy? That’s the most important one that impacted me. Always remember that you have a legacy. What is that legacy going to look like to your kids and just everyone around you? Also, another major takeaway was you need a mentor. You always need a mentor. If you don’t have one, start looking at possible people even if you have to hunt them down like James did. A mentor can drastically change your level of growth and the amount of exhilaration you have towards your end goals. Another thing is you always have to be adding value to the value chain so to speak. James did a good job at pointing that out when he was talking about his mentor, he said, what's my value? And he said he would write copy for free and stuff. So think about what would your value be adding to the people around you. And finally I have one more, that was, under promise and always over deliver. That’s a huge take away for just the life in general. Always blow people away that are around you. Leave them impressed. So make it a great day!